Tone-Deaf Christianity

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome in to the Think Deeper podcast presented by Focus Press. I'm your co host Will Hare, joined by Joe and Jack Wilkie. Excited to bring you guys another episode today where we're talking about the concept of tone deaf Christianity. Joe has put together a great outline here and that we're going to flesh out over the next hour and just kind of look at just this concept of the way that Christians can sometimes have this tone deafness regarding the world, regarding society, regarding, you know, this earthly life compared to eternal life. And Joe, I'm going to hand it to you here in just a second to kind of get us into what all we're going to be talking about. But just as I do, I guess there's some, there's an interesting concept that I wanted to get your thoughts on that I feel like when you say tone deaf, typically what I'm thinking of is somebody who is not really aware of how they're coming across to those around them. Maybe they're, they're just having a hard time like seeing, oh, man, maybe I shouldn't say something like that. Or man, maybe that maybe this, this tone is not good. Obviously a lot of the tone deafness. But what's interesting about this to me, and then I want, I want you to get in on this is I feel like Christians a lot of times are very concerned with how they come across to the world, with how they come across to the loss. In fact, we've argued before maybe a little bit too concerned with how, you know, well, how's the law, what's the, what are the loss going to think or how is this going to make other people feel and all these things. And so I don't know that again, kind of throwing a curveball into the intro here. But as I was just looking at this introductory section and looking at kind of the rest of the outline, it did hit me that there are a lot of Christians that are very concerned with how they're coming across to the world. And so maybe it's more so to, to fellow Christians, to each other, to kids, whatever, that this tone deafness emerges. You have any thoughts on that? And again, feel free to get us into maybe some more introductory thoughts as to what we're hitting today. [00:02:01] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. So the, you know, when we talk about tone deafness, this is the Christian who, yeah, it's, it's primarily for other Christians, I suppose, because we are to be plugged into kind of what's, you know, we want to be plugged into the world. We want to be plugged into how we affect others around us. I think that's a very Christian principle when with empathy and compassion and things like that. We do want to know how we're coming across and we do want to know how we're taking care of, you know, primarily our family or our church family, but also to the world. We have to think about how we come across. And I do think you're right. We have a, an emphasis on coming across appropriately to the lost. But, man, I think we could take a baseball bat to each other if we're not careful. We can be very judgmental without even realizing it. Because there's plenty of Christians who purposely bury their head in the sand. They don't want to know. They don't. They. They don't really care. They don't want to have to engage with anything what's going on in this world. That's very purposeful. This episode is about discussing kind of something different. It's about discussing the tone de. And. And what we mean by that is they see the times, they just won't engage with the times. They're not burying their head in the sand, per se of like, oh, I, I don't see what's going on. They do. They take an adjacent approach to it where they're not really willing to engage with any of the problems of today because they're always looking for the get out of jail free card, which is heaven. Well, we just think about heaven. We kind of want to dig into the problematic portion of, well, this world's not my home. Immediately jumping to that every time somebody gives you or somebody mentioned something they're struggling with or a problem, I think that's very, very detrimental. And this is where we can really be harmful to fellow Christians, where they come away going, I guess my problems aren't that bad, when in reality maybe they are. Maybe they need something other than, hey, you know, luckily we're going to heaven like we are, but we still have problems here on earth. Jack, anything you'd add to that? [00:03:52] Speaker C: Yeah, there's an old quote about some people are so heavenly minded that they're of no earthly good. And I think some people might bristle against that. Like, well, what's wrong with being heavenly minded? Well, you should be heavenly minded in a sense of, I am looking forward to heaven, but that's impacting what I do now. It's not just, well, that's the only thing that matters. And if it's not a direct thing that's about getting me to heaven, then it doesn't really matter. Well, I mean, there's a reason you don't die the minute you go down in the waters of baptism and just get assumed into heaven, like Enoch, like that kind of thing. Like you have good works to walk in. You have a life to live and to impact the people around you and bless them and make their lives better and make the world a better place and the kingdom spreading. And everything about Jesus sending forth the church was to evangelize and baptize people, but also to make disciples and really just be the salt and light in the world. I mean, Matthew 5 is very clear about that, that the world is supposed to be better because of our impact on it. And that goes beyond just evangelism, goes beyond just Sundays, goes beyond just some of those things. And there's a very limited, small like amount of things that we're supposed to do or that we're supposed to be allowed to do. Maybe a clothing drive, maybe a food donation, maybe something like that to help those less fortunate good things to do. Beyond that, it's kind of like, well, let's not worry about this world. Let's not worry about the cares of this world. The things going on in this world, I get tangled up in the, the polis, the city, the country, the state, whatever. Um, but you live here, you're here. And so being that overly heavenly minded to not care about those things and as you say, comes off tone deaf. It tells the people around us, boy, those Christians, they're so head in the clouds, they don't, they won't pay attention to what's right in front of them. [00:05:40] Speaker A: What I would kind of liken it to is, I don't know if you guys, you know, you hear the term senioritis, where kids in a, in their senior year of high school and man, they're just, they are ready to go to college. They are itching to get out of the house to go off to college, to obviously enjoy the summer, but kind of move on to the next phase of their life. Well, if they don't go to class for their entire senior year and they skip out on all their assignments and don't take their finals, what's that going to do to their, their college experience? Their college, you know, scholarships or whatever? Like, there's almost like they. You have to understand that what you do your senior year of high school has an effect on the next four years of your life in college. And I think that that's just kind of where my mind went, Jack, as you were describing, the fact that I Feel like we compartmentalize so much. Okay, well, there's earth and then there's heaven. There's this life here and then there's the heavenly, eternal, spiritual life. And that's really what we're going for. That's. That's what we're. That's what we're striving for. And it of course is. But I do feel that similar disconnect with, yeah, but what you do in this life, and I'm not just talking about obeying the gospel, obviously, that's pretty obvious. But how you, how you live your days, how you live your weeks, how you raise your kids, how you interact with those around you, how you serve the church, how you make a difference, difference in your community, in your neighborhood, all these things. It almost seems like again, we have a spiritual senioritis where it's like, well, I just, I just really want to get to the next thing. And again, it's not wrong to want that. I don't want anybody to come across their snow. Wow. They're saying that we shouldn't want heaven. Absolutely not. But you have to understand the impact on your eternal life that living today has, if that makes sense. [00:07:15] Speaker B: Well, that's, that's a perfect illustration because, you know, if you have somebody who really takes their studies in their senior year seriously, what, you just not even care about graduation? Like. No, absolutely I do. That's the goal. [00:07:26] Speaker A: I'm. [00:07:26] Speaker B: I'm heading for the graduation. Yeah. That's why I'm doing this. And that's. I am very much looking forward to it. And that's why I'm doing everything I can down here. To try to make a difference is, you know, I'm, I'm setting myself up and really trying to grow closer to God in this life. And there's other ways to do that other than just waiting to punch the ticket to heaven. We are. I love that idea. Senioritis. And this is once again to wrap up the intro as we kind of make our way into the outline. This is what we're talking about. Tone deaf Christianity. It is tone deaf to look at some of the problems around the world and just think about, hey, I'm on the next shuttle out of here. Does that really help people? Is it really better to take that approach with people? And then you go, well, hey, you know, we're not supposed to have the cares of this world. We're not supposed to worry like everybody else in this world. No, we have a piece about us. We want to set that up from the very beginning. We do we should have a piece as Christians that passes all understanding. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to care about people. We're not allowed to care about things. I'm going to jump, fellas, to the, you know, I put this a little bit lower in the outline just to the scriptural backing before we jump into maybe where this came from. And, and, and some of the ways that this is used against us. Because to establish our case, biblically speaking, I do think Jesus met people where they were at. You look at the centurion with his servant. You look at the synagogue leader with his daughter. I didn't want to get that wrong because I was throwing this together last night. Darius, I want to say, correct, D isn't Jared. Jared Jairus. There you go. I was like, man, that doesn't sound right. And it was late and I didn't look it up. [00:08:52] Speaker A: But anyway, Darius is the king in Daniel, right? [00:08:54] Speaker C: All right. [00:08:55] Speaker B: There you go. Which my wife swears to me it's Darius and I can't, I just can't get around that. But anyway, yeah, Darius is what I'm going to go with Darius Rucker. And Darius Rucker is what I start calling him. Sure. But anyway, so sorry, we digress, but we, we majorly digress. But anyway. [00:09:13] Speaker C: Yes, Sir. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Yes. Mark 5. So the point is, Jesus didn't look at him and go, well, you know, hey, you got heaven coming. It's like he met people where they were at. He had a very serious issue. My daughter is dying. Can you please come help me? Of course Jesus could heal in that moment. At the same time, he met people where they were at. He. He didn't push their problems off of like, hey, but she's going to be in a better place, or, you know, this world's not our home. We shouldn't really worry about the, the physical matters. The people come to him for bread and for water. And yes, he points them to, I am the bread of, of life. Right. And the giver of living waters. At the same time, there's this level of like, he still recognized the people had physical needs and was willing to meet those needs. And I would say Paul is willing to confront the problems of today. He was not burying his head in the sand with cultural relevancy. He understood what people are up against, were up against, and he didn't over spiritualize everything and just push them into heaven. He dealt with them where they were at in real world issues and didn't have a problem delving into those quite a bit. In some of his books. [00:10:11] Speaker C: My apologies to all the grammar enthusiasts who are having a fit over Joe saying where. Where they were at, but whatever, sorry. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Just meeting them where they were. [00:10:21] Speaker C: You're driving me crazy with that one. Anyway, Jack's coming for you today, Joe. That's right. [00:10:24] Speaker B: I'm telling you what. [00:10:25] Speaker C: Yeah, stickler, fact checker here. No, but your point is exactly right, that could you imagine, like what it would have looked like to Jesus when he talks about bringing the kingdom to this world? And in Luke where he's reading that the oppressed are free and all those promises, I mean, things are going to get better when the kingdom is here. And then it's kind of like, well, I mean, when we get to heaven is what I was talking about. Actually, I'm not actually going to improve your life here in any way. Don't worry about it. Like you said, hey, too blessed to be stressed. Jairus. Sorry. And I think sometimes even that extends to funerals with Christians like, oh, don't be sad. No, you can be sad. You can have hope. Yeah, I mean, like that's a great example, John 11, of the sadness that was there. And I mean, you're still here. You can still live in the reality of the moment while having a foot in heaven and holding onto that hope that gets you through those things. But that doesn't mean you don't feel them here. [00:11:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:24] Speaker A: You know what I think, and this is just speculation here, but you know what I think some of this might be a reaction to. We in the Church of Christ specifically look at like Joel Osteen and the prosperity gospel, where it's all about how great your life is going to be here. And obviously he kind of. Not that I frequent Joel Osteen sermons, but, you know, from what I know, he kind of talks about, you know, you're going to have a great financial prosperity, like, essentially your life here on earth is going to be great again, the prosperity gospel, like Jesus is just going to make your life better. He's got a plan for you, all these things. And it's very earthly life focused. And so I do wonder if part of this is just a good natured kind of gut reaction, swinging the pendulum the other direction to say, well, that's too focused on, you know, how great our life is going to be here. And not enough focus on spirituality because I don't think, of course, that he takes the appropriate level of attention to the spiritual life, eternal life. And he does tend to focus more on the earthly life. And so I don't know, I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. I wonder if that's part of the. The reason why we specifically in the Church of Christ have such a. An aversion to that idea and kind of don't really talk about how Joe or Jack, you brought up before how John and his gospel talks about eternal life as something that we have now, not later. Like, not, oh, yeah, you'll get there eventually, but something we have now. And so I wonder if, again, just the Joel Osteen prosperity gospel stuff is why we tend to shy away from that. [00:12:51] Speaker C: That's a great. [00:12:52] Speaker B: I also think that. [00:12:52] Speaker C: I think that, well, just briefly on that people accuse of that, of caring too much and being too rooted in this world, and that it's like a selfish thing. Like, well, you want prosperity. You want to live a really easy life. Like, for me and my kids and my neighbors, everybody else. Like, I want everybody to have to not be right on the brink of poverty, to be starving, to be through, like, things that people are living through today. You don't want them living through that. And I mean, that's love. That's part of the Christian ethic, is wanting those things. And it's not a selfish man. If I can just have a Ferrari, like, no, it's really not about that. [00:13:28] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. The other thing I was going to say is we, by and large, go figure, me as the therapists, have a real problem with the way we shut down emotion. And I think it is. We've talked about it a lot on this podcast before, of how we don't want to be Pentecostal. We don't want to bring in emotion, and we don't want to be those who are just driven by emotion and every decision we make. And so we logic our way through everything. And part of being in this world and weeping and being sad and being nervous from time to time and being depressed from time to time. Like, we squash emotion and always push to the spiritual of, like, well, like you said, Jack, two blessed be stressed, things like that. That doesn't help people. That doesn't meet people where they're at. And you can see Jesus very much showed human emotion. He did show anger. He did show sadness. He did show grieving over, you know, over Jerusalem and. And the chicks to mother hen and such. Like, Jesus did have emotion. That's very Eastern, right? They didn't have a problem. David is dancing, David is weeping openly. Things like that. We do. We shut it down. That's an American thing, but it's also in the churches of Christ. So I think that compounds this problem a little bit more as well. It makes it difficult to meet people where they're at when we are intellectualizing every last problem that comes their way. [00:14:37] Speaker A: Well, Joe, you have on here the last section of our introductory part of our outline here. Is it really better to tell people that we don't have to think about things going on right now, that maybe some hard times, for instance, hurt, you know, just rough patches in life? Is it really better to tell people that we don't have to think about those things because we're basically on the next shuttle out of here. And as I was thinking about that, where my mind went is how this would serve us in evangelistic purposes in reaching those around us with, you know, the good news of the gospel, specifically those of us, or those of us goodness, specifically those who are unchurched. I am not unchurched. I am not. Those of us who are unchurched. Specifically those who, you know, don't really have a religious background or maybe. Don't forget to be careful. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. [00:15:22] Speaker C: Jack checked himself. Yeah, exactly. [00:15:27] Speaker A: I wonder how much of that. I mean, could you just imagine, again, you've got somebody who does not go to church, not, not a believer or anything like that. And our evangelistic pitch to them is, well, you know, just, just wait till the next life. You know, this is the good news that we have. And, and, you know, can't really help you with anything going on here, but the next life is just going to be absolutely amazing versus including part of that. Again, the allure of heaven and getting to spend eternity with God should absolutely be, you know, if we're ever studying with somebody, for instance, that absolutely needs to be brought up. But I do think there is an element of. Of John 10 talking about going to have life and have it more abundantly. Like, no, your life here on earth gets better. Not that it gets more prosperous, not that you make more money, that all your problems go away, or that, you know, you just never have hardship again, nothing like that. But because you get to have the promise of eternal life, because you get to look forward and be striving for eternal life with God. There are ripple effects of that to where your life here on earth gets better because you're trying to reflect Christ. More good deed, more good deeds come, come in your path. You have the gift of the church, the fellowship of Christians that comes with that. You have the. Just the assurance, the hope. All these things in this life not just the next life, in this life. And again, I'm sure that a lot of people who are really big into the door, knocking, evangelism and all those things, I'm sure that they include that. But I feel like just the way that you view this, this concept will ultimately determine how are you. Again, sounds bad, but like advertising the gospel to people, is it all the next life, all the next life, all the next life, or is it, hey, we're really looking forward to going to heaven in the next life, but here's how that impacts you today, right now in this life. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So last couple things on the scriptural principles before we get in. And Jack, you had added these. These are great ads. Nehemiah's care for his homeland. He comes in, there are legitimate concerns in the here and now. He didn't just over spiritualize everything. Like, guys, we got to build this wall. He has a lot of care for his homeland. He's going to the king and saying, hey, can I go back? You know, my heart is with my people. Mark 7, verse 11 with a Corbin giving. Like, yeah, I mean, Jack, I don't know if you have anything you want to add. [00:17:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that verse comes to mind a lot with these discussions of over spiritualization. And that's where Jesus is chastising the Pharisees for, oh, sorry, mom and dad can't help you. I gave the money to God. God didn't want them to put it in the temple treasury. He wanted them to take care of their mom and dad. And that just goes to the physical concerns of the people. Right in front of you are a way of serving God. These are not again. And this is the problem of these people put these things against each other. Well, oh, you're, you're looking out for the physical. I'm interested in serving God. No, you can serve God in the physical. And that was exactly what Jesus was hitting them on, is to say, you think you're better off. You think you're. You're high and holy and pious because, oh, mom and dad, sorry, I can't feed you this month, can't pay your rent. But you know, I gave the money to God. Giving the money to God would have been taking care of your father and mother. Like that's what God wanted you to do with it. [00:18:34] Speaker A: And so a physical way to accomplish a spiritual responsibility. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:18:39] Speaker C: Very clearly, they're not one or the other. Like, this is. In fact, this is the best way to do the spiritual is through the physical. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Hey, guys, Will Hrub here Just wanted to take a minute and let you know that if you enjoy listening to the Think Deeper podcast, we wanted to make you aware of another podcast we have on the Focus Press podcast platform. It's called the Godly Young Men podcast, where myself and Joe, we tackle a lot of cultural issues that are facing young men. The target age range is around 15 to 25 years old, but we have young men of all ages listen to it. Our goal is just to restore them to godly masculinity and talk about the challenges and things that are facing young men in today's time. So if you're interested, check that out on YouTube or on any of your favorite podcast platforms. [00:19:26] Speaker B: So, fellas, as we keep moving down this timeline here or down this, you know, outline, I do want to Steel man, it. Because we're going to have people that maybe are on the other side of us that are going, you're missing key verses, you're missing key thoughts. You know, our world is not of this home, or our sorry Christ gain is not of this world. And. And our home is not in this world. So they may go to a place like John 17, where he's saying, like, you're. You're not of this world, right? You. We are pointing towards something better. You could take us to Hebrews 11 and say they were always looking for that greater reward, you know, the greater land. [00:19:59] Speaker A: Philippians 3. Our citizenship is. Is in heaven. Is in heaven. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Correct. Our citizenship is in heaven. So you can look at that and easily make the case. Okay, guys, you're. You're saying we should care, but at the same time, I got all this scripture backing us up, saying maybe that basically our, Our, you know, our home is not here and our citizenship. Excuse me, our citizenship is in heaven. What do you say to that? [00:20:23] Speaker A: So for me and Jack, I'll let you take over here after me. So I would just try to keep everything in context, because as we were talking about Steel man, that's where my mind went is John 17. And then Philippians 3, you know, if I was trying to argue kind of the other position. And they're in John 17, as he's praying for his disciples, you know, right before he gets arrested in the garden of Gethsemane. He says there in verse 14, I've given them your word and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I'm not the world. But in verse 15, he does say, I do not pray that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil one. And so even that right there in the context Jesus is clarifying, like I'm not saying this world doesn't matter and that they should, you know, that it does not have any bearing on them. He doesn't want, you know, not to be taken out of the world. That's where we get the phrase in the world but not of the world, basically straight out of the mouth of Jesus. And so I think that's an important distinction to make. And then verse 18, as you have sent me into the world, I also have sent them where into the world. Very clear acknowledgement there of, yeah, this world does matter. I've set them here for a reason. It's almost as if people, I think, believe that God created this earth in this world as like a holding ground. Like we're in the. The temporary holding ground. And then the real stuff is eternal life in heaven, which of course that's what we're striving for. But God did create this earth and he designed it for us specifically. There's literally no other planet that can support life. There's some significance to that. I think that again, this world and this earth God created for us specifically to live in, not just as some temporary holding ground where it's like, all right guys, just kind of stall, just kind of run the clock out until you get to heaven. There's purpose to this earth, there's purpose to this world. And then Philippians 3, before I hand it back to you, Jack, he does say, for our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. And so I do want to acknowledge, we do need to be heavenly minded enough to acknowledge that we are anxiously waiting to be with Christ. We are just chomping at the bit to live with Christ and to be with him and to see his return. But there in that context he's talking about when he says, for our citizenship is in heaven, he's contrasting that view with verse 18, 19. For many walk of whom I've told you often and now tell you, even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, whose glory is in their shame, and who set their mind on earthly things. This is a specific group of people that Paul is talking about here, people who glory in their shame. They make a God out of anything that they desire. They want their. What is their appetite, desire. That's what they make their God out of. And he their end is destruction. All these things. That's the specific type of group he's describing. And they do set their mind on earthly things. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Why? [00:23:01] Speaker A: Because that's all they want. They just want what. What's next. Their appetite again, they glory in their shame. All these terrible things, he says, but our citizenship in heaven, so that that's the contrast there, that he's going. A specific group of just evil, wicked, unrighteous people. Us as Christians saying, let's really try to make an impact in this world and try to live out as Christ would have us live in this world is not the same thing from my perspective as saying again, verse 18 there in Philippians 3. But Jack, what additions would you have to. Those are the two kind of, I guess if we're doing it this style, rebuttals that I would have to those two verses. [00:23:38] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just this modern individualism that makes us think that your roots don't matter. Your. Your connection to any of these things, your citizenship and all that nationality and where you're from throughout the Bible matters from the beginning all the way essentially from Babel to Revelation, right. God sends everybody the directions they went for a reason. That wasn't like a bad thing. That was God's purpose. And that's why he changed their languages so they would go and do what he told them to do in the first place, which is scatter throughout the earth and fill the earth. And again, you see nations throughout Scripture. And God deals with people as nations. God judges nations. And he. I mean, America is one of those. And so Americans are under that altogether. There's a collective view that God has of peoples in that way. And we like to think we don't. We can kind of opt in or out of that. You can opt in or out of considering yourself American. You can opt in or out of considering yourself part of this whole thing. You can't. God views you as part of this whole. And so that's important. And the other thing is Acts 17. He says he put us in these places. He put us essentially, he appointed their times and the boundaries of their existence, your time and your place that you exist in to help you understand and help you find Him. So that's part of it is he has put us where we are, when we are for a reason. And so that we would walk in the good works he's given us that this is part of this, like defines. This is the people he places around you. Your duty is to your. Your blood family, your. Your wife, your kids, or whatever it may be, but also your community, your citizens around you the nation that you're a part of. You see Daniel praying for his nation. You see the. The corporate repentance of things like that. And in Ezra and similar things like that. We as a people have sinned. Well, Daniel didn't. But like that. He viewed himself as part of that. That whole. We need to view ourselves that way, too, which guides our actions inside of that system. [00:25:32] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. So we're already kind of discussing what leads to this. We're already getting into where some of this thinking comes from. And that is they have scripture on their side. We just. I don't think we, you know, scripture doesn't contradict itself. I think there's just more context to this. And I think you guys laid out a very good case as to why we are saying, look, our hope is in Christ, our hope is in heaven. And we do pray that Christ comes back and get us out of this mess that we're in. That would be fantastic. I think Christians should be praying for, but that doesn't mean that we get to do away with or not even consider or think about some of the issues that people are dealing with today. But what you get is a lot of, like, catchphrases that you'll hear in the church, which is, of course, Christ came out of this world. The world's not my home. Christian shouldn't be concerned with worldly matters. Christ is in control. Jesus is on his throne. Right? Jesus is on his throne. You hear that one a lot. And so what that does is it tells people, if you care about anything that's going on down here, Jesus is on his throne. We know that. We're not against that, but we absolutely know that there's some things that we're about to get into, maybe some of the problems. And I want to specifically speak to that one. But you have those that think that Christians who care about worldly things are too focused on the world. You care too much about stuff. You start focusing on politics and what's coming up. And it sounds like your mind is just on worldly things. Like, my mind is on relevant things. And me being able to put food on my family's table is highly relevant, and that will be determined. You know what? Who gets voted in as president does determine some of those things. Jack, you already spoke to this one. Too blessed to be stressed, Anxious Christians are weak Christians, kind of. We have this idea. Nobody comes out and says that implicit or explicitly a lot of the time. But the way that we. I Suppose that has happened. But the way that we talk about it shows if you're depressed, if you're stressed, if you're, you know, anxious about anything, you're just weak. You don't have enough faith, you don't need to pray to God enough. And so we browbeat a lot of Christians. And this goes back to what you were saying at the very beginning, Will, which is this is less about how we're treating the world, how we're approaching the world. It's more about how we treat one another, how we think about Christian problems. And it's easy to browbeat a Christian into not paying attention to any of their, their issues right now, any of where, where they're at as, as I might say. And that leaves a lot of Christians discouraged, going, okay, I guess I shouldn't care about this, when in reality it's okay to care, it's okay to be passionate in that way. But ultimately, I think what leads to this. I'll just wrap this section up. Ultimately, I think what leads to this is people want, like it feels more spiritual to spiritualize everything. It feels more spiritual to push to heaven and go, well, we got heaven coming. My, you know, our home's not of this world and I'm citizens in heaven and Jesus on his throne. And it spiritualizes things, which sounds great and it makes me feel more spiritual. It just doesn't really help the Christian who is dealing with real issues in the time being trying to put food on his family's table, just focus on heaven. Like we're going to get there a lot sooner if we starve to death. So we would rather that not be the case. But I think that's kind of what leads to this is all of these Christian catchphrases kind of quote unquote, that help us feel spiritual but not really help people along the way. [00:28:40] Speaker C: Well, let me cross examine that. You know, on the steel manning front, they're going to look at you and say, Matthew 6, you seem awful worried. And Jesus, you know, God, he closed the, closed the lilies, feeds the birds of the air, why you're going to be okay. And even if it gets really bad and things like that, what's your response to that? [00:29:01] Speaker B: Let's say we start to keep our feet moving in this. We still have to. And it's God provides in a number of ways. And I think it's okay to try to find ways that God can provide. If there's a way we can affect that. The same way that if a man doesn't Work, he shall not eat. You know, if he can't provide for his family, he's worse than an unbeliever. All of those things I think goes to show we do need to be about, like if the guy is working really hard to try to put food on his family, say what? Do you not trust in God? Do you not trust that God's going to provide? Yeah, he's going to provide through me. Working hard. There are ways that God can provide that very much are grounded in what we can do. Same thing with who we vote for, like bringing about a specific result in this way. And the reason we did this before the election is this is where a lot of Christians just don't vote. They don't think about it. And it's like, but some of how we can help and some of the way that God is going to lead the nation is in Christians getting out and voting. Sometimes God brings things about through our hands as he is, you know, Christ is the head of the church, we're the body and we go out and do these things. So that's what I would say to that is it's not that I know God's going to provide, but how he provides makes a difference. And me sitting on my hands and doing nothing is, I mean, that, that makes me worse than a non believer type of thing. And I don't know if that makes sense, but to me it's kind of like God still expect them even when they went into the promised land. I think we spoke a bit about this on the last podcast. Even when they went into the promised land, they were still moving their feet. They still had to go, they still had to go to war. It wasn't like, yes, God helped them in that. God's sending hailstones, but guess who's still in battle. They didn't sit on their lawn chairs at home while God sent the hailstones. No, they went out and engaged him in battle, went to war. And God helped them along the way. God helped them as they were going. It's the Great Commission, as you're going do these things. So there's an expectation that we're going to put one foot in front of the other. And I think those who go, well, God's going to provide, let's just sit back like, he will provide. However, maybe one of the ways he provides is by us making really wise decisions, by us trying to elect a leader who's going to allow us to afford a loaf of bread. Maybe God provides by, you know, those type of things. So I Don't know if that's the perfect answer specifically what you're looking for. Just on the spot on off the top of my head as you're asking. But yeah. Does that make sense? [00:31:13] Speaker A: I was just gonna say yeah, it makes sense. I I'm a firm believer that one of a preacher, minister, elder call it church leaders biggest responsibilities to the I always hate saying the average Christian like the, the non minister Christian the Christian sitting in the pew on Sunday morning. The the member of the flock is not just to teach what the Bible says. You know teach a you know here's what the text says, here's what the text means but also here's how this applies to you living your life prior practically speaking in other words like practical way you know practical questions that you have ways that you need to parent your kids or what you need to do be doing with sending them to school or just all the the issues that we face in life. I think it's an enormous responsibility on church leaders to to communicate to their to their flock. Yet this is how this text that we just went over applies on Tuesday of next week applies you know on on Saturday of you know what I mean? Like I feel like we can get so spiritualized with all of our messages sermons, whatever that a Christian. I think it's very common for a Christian to come away from a sermon or class or whatever going okay what do I do with that? I mean you even hear the prayers where it's like help us to take what we've learned and apply it in our everyday lives. And we always you know, people just not to bash people but we kind of say that mindlessly practically how do these things apply? And I think that's where we're falling short in this and all these things that you just talked about Joe Christine was not this world. This world's not my home. Shouldn't be too focused on worldly things. Leads to a lot of Christians being confused a lot of Christians being clueless on yeah this is why to bring up a an old one here. This is why sending your kids to the public school is probably a bad idea. That's a very practical thing. It's a worldly focus thing but it's a very practical thing that you get out of teaching the whole counsel of God things with Mar. You know how to, how to deal with conflict marriage stuff like I just think that's a huge responsibility that a lot of pulpits and a lot of ministers miss is like your job is to teach Christians how the text how God's word applies to them Monday through Saturday. It's not just about giving them Bible knowledge. That's really important. And it's not just about just hold the fort down guys, till we all get to heaven. You need to. We need to be using God's word. That's the whole point of it. Right? Because you'll even hear that too. Like, thank you, God for sending us the Bible so we know how to live our lives. I think a lot of Christians think that that means, well, I got another plan of salvation, I got to go to worship. Other than that, you know, like, I know the basic story of the Bible and that's it. No, it's here to help us live Monday through Saturday. Practical decisions that we have to make, finances, like all these things. And so that's just kind of where my mind went. Joe, as we're talking about this concept, I do think a lot of church members are kind of lacking in this because it's not being taught that way, if that makes sense. [00:34:13] Speaker C: I think some of what we're dealing with is there's two different approaches to this that we kind of have to tackle. One is that Christians essentially have no agency in this kind of stuff, that, well, God's controlling it all anyway. And some will say to get involved with the world around you, you might be going against God's will. God's will might be for certain things to happen and you getting involved, you're working against God's will. So why do that in that way? And so we just don't have agency. God's going to do what he's going to do and Jesus is on his throne. Well, he's just kind of, he's responding so many times to what we're giving him. Like we, he's given us agency, he's given us the ability to impact things. And when something really bad happens, it's not to say, see, you were working against God. It was this is what, like, if more people had been pulling in that direction, this wouldn't have happened. And so the George barna thing, about 32 million Christian voters sitting home or, you know, church going voters sitting at home, that's the kind of thing that is being pushed here. And we bring up voting, that's just the most direct, most on the forefront of our minds kind of thing. But the same kind of Christians who don't vote are a lot of times those that aren't going to get on a school board aren't going to be involved in community impact kind of things. These are ways you can affect the world. And then there's the other camp. That's not that we can't do anything. It's. We're not supposed to do those things. We're only supposed to evangelize. We're only supposed to do the spiritual things. We're not really allowed to get involved. You know, the kingdoms are entirely separate and don't touch at all. And that's where it becomes tone deaf. That's kind of, oh, we're just in our own spiritual, in our head kingdom and so we don't have to. We're not interested in any of the things going on around us. And yeah, both of them just have bad results. [00:36:01] Speaker B: This is why Christian nationalism is a discussion and why it does matter. Go back and check out our podcast on that one. Because for this very reason, like we are intended and I think supposed to be affecting things here for Christ's kingdom, like, we want to expand that. That's not just on a personal evangelism level. If there's other ways that we can expand the. The kingdom of Christ and expand the laws of Christianity, you know, it's affected the world in amazing ways. We want to continue that and keep that going. What drives me nuts is, Jack, you've talked a lot about this of. I think it's CS Lewis's house on fire type thing, but it's also kind of the. The right ditch. We. Boy, we really don't want to go into that right ditch where all you think about is voting and all you think about is the school board and you don't. Okay, let's be honest. How many Christians do you know that are really on that end of things where they are so far removed from thinking about Christ that there's. And so far into politics? We act like that's the everyday Christian and every Republican out there or whatever. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Is like, it's a handful. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Maybe MAGA country. It's a handful. The overwhelming majority in the church. The problem here is those who do nothing. Those exactly as you talked about, Jack, kind of sit in either of those camps. And we're so busy brow beating all of those in the other camp, which all of those is not that many, in my experience. You have people that care. Maybe we care a little bit too much, but we act like we're. We're that First Baptist Church where we're doing like Trump Sundays and such. That doesn't happen in the church of Christ, but you would think it does, by the way we talk about it. Of all these people that don't realize Jesus is on his throne. Like we very much do. Stop telling me I can't care about things in this world because Jesus is on his throne. Yes, he is. But you know what? [00:37:39] Speaker A: Mutually exclusive, right? [00:37:41] Speaker B: Jesus was on his throne when 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. Jesus was on his throne when 12 million Russians starved to death from Stalin. Jesus was on his throne during the all of the atrocities of the world. Jesus was still on his throne. So don't tell me that Jesus being on his throne means, means that everything is going to be fantastic. Tell that to the, to the Jewish families who lost all their loved ones at Auschwitz. Like, yes, Jesus is on his throne. And I understand that. And that means ultimately, yes, Christ wins. But you know what doesn't help when we always talk about the war. Christ wins. Christ wins. Yes. We're losing kids to transgenderism. We're having kids walk out the door at a 75% rate from the church. Well, Jesus wins. It's like he doesn't win in their life. How many kids are we going to lose to the world? How many kids are going to go to hell while we're still talking about we're going to heaven, we're going to heaven. My kids aren't now because we took this approach and it's like heaven, heaven, heaven. And then they were taken by the world. And we go, well, just have faith they'll come back. Like maybe what we are supposed to do is get busy actually working with them, get busy on helping them through this, get busy on calling them out and leading them more toward Christ. And instead we kind of sit back, rest on our laurels, always talk about heaven. And then they're faced with reality, with real things, and we have no answers for them. So where do you think they go? They go to the world, then we're shocked when they fall away. And then we go, well, we still have heaven. It's like we're losing people in droves from the church while we continue to over spiritualize things. That's not helping anybody. So I'm not saying Jesus isn't on his throne and I'm not going to be a heretic. And saying that that doesn't matter. Of course it matters. Stop using that as the end all, be all while the world around us is burning down. And we go, well, doesn't work. It doesn't matter. Like this is real world consequences for people. That is so tone deaf to act like that doesn't matter. [00:39:22] Speaker A: That's what I was going to say is exactly what you just described is the tone deafness that we're talking about. I think that that was the perfect encapsulation of it is ignoring in a way all the atrocities that are going on because we focus on heaven. That's the tone deafness. Guys, I do want to ask. [00:39:38] Speaker C: Well, before we move off the Jesus is on his throne thing, the one thing I've been saying about that is everyone's just saying that as a comfort thing, no matter what happens, Jesus is on his throne. If you live in a nation under judgment, that's not comfort. That is. That should scare you to death into action. And the weird thing is people are using this as a reason for inaction. Wrong. You're going the wrong direction on that. Jesus is on his throne. This nation deserves his judgment. Look at history of what happens when a nation is under Christ's judgment. It should scare you to death to start doing something. Stop saying that. To not do something. [00:40:08] Speaker B: It is totally back. That's a great point. That's a great point. [00:40:14] Speaker C: Hey folks, we've been telling you about Think Deeper Live, our in person event. We're excited to announce that we have locked down where it's going to be. It'll be at Jackson Temple Church of Christ in Burns, Tennessee. It's about 30 minutes west of Nashville, not far off of I40. So we hope you can join us. It'll be Saturday, November 16, from 9 to 11:30. We'll have some breakfast snacks before we get started and then Joe, Will and I will be discussing God's plan for gender for men and women and then a roundtable discussion to end it all off. So join us November 16th, Jackson Temple Church of Christ. Go to ThinkDeeperLive.com to register. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Well, you're about to lead us in something I think. [00:40:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just gonna ask because you got on here, Joe and I think this is where we will probably get the most pushback. Because as I'm just thinking about my life growing up in the church and kind of the, the main thrust of most of the sermons and most of the emphasis you've got on here, not everything is about heaven. We've hit around this concept and talked about how the things on in this life, the things on this earth, absolutely affect our view of heaven and then our eternal life. What would you say, what would you guys say to somebody who just is appalled that we even would have that on the outline? Well, not everything is about heaven. Again, I kind of grew up thinking, believing everything kind of is about heaven. Like that is kind of the, the similar to a team, a football team saying, well, you know, not everything's about winning the Super Bowl. For a lot of teams it should be. You know what I mean? So like, I'm, I'm curious what your guys thoughts are. If you, Joe, if you had anything else to elaborate on that or if somebody were to push back on that and say, no, everything very much is about heaven, what you would say? [00:41:54] Speaker B: I, I think it's a relevant. I think it's a good question. What I would say to that is what we usually do with that is we skip to the Super Bowl. You can't skip to the Super Bowl. You got a season to live or, you know, to play. You've got games down here that very much matter before you get to the Super Bowl. And what people usually mean by that is it's all about heaven. I think it's all about becoming like Christ. We have to change what the kind of, what the goal is. And I think those who want to be like Christ will love heaven. And those who really don't care about being like Christ, they just want all of the goodness won't. And I think there's Francis Chan. We talked on this before. I think it was Francis Chan made the point of like, if you get to heaven and you've got all of the nice cars and the giant mansion, you know, mansion, and over the hilltop and man, it's beautiful, and you got the bowling alley and the tennis courts and the swimming pool and everything else and you got everything you want, all your family's there, all this, but Jesus isn't there. Do you want it? And unfortunately, I think there's a lot of people that if they're very honest with themselves, heaven has become that place. I got that mansion, like I couldn't care less about a mansion. Put me in a shack, man. If that's what it takes, if I get to be closer to Jesus, that's what I want ultimately, like that's. And that's not patting myself on the back. That's something that I have to check myself on. And when I become too concerned with the cares of this world or with the getting rich in this world or whatever it may be, and I start focusing on those parts of heaven, I lose sight of the fact that this entire situation is about getting to know Jesus, being more like Jesus, getting to know God. That's the whole point of Jesus. Read John 1. He is manifesting it like we the only way we know the Father is through the Son. Our job is to get to Know God and to be like Christ in every single way in heaven is the perfect reward for those who do that. How can we be more like Christ? By caring about the concerns of those in this world and helping them realize or helping them through it, where their faith begins to grow. When we spiritualize things, when we take this Gnostic approach, like, oh, none of the physical matters, we're always going to heaven, heaven, heaven, we lose sight of the very real work we have here on earth to be like Christ. That to me is kind of a missing piece in a lot of Christianity when we focus too much on heaven as the reward. Heaven is a. Almost like a, you know, a consequence to the reward of getting to be like. Or it's like the cherry on top type of thing to being like Christ. Even if heaven wasn't. And this is the other question I might ask for people to chew on us from. If heaven wasn't promised at the end, neither was hell, but it was just death. Would you still be a Christian? Would you still want. And of course, you know Christ, the whole point of Christ is resurrection and being with him. But would you still want to live for Christ? Would you still be focused on, this is the best life in the here and now, trying to glorify God to the best of my ability, or is it only because we get heaven at the end? It ought to be a depth of love for God that spurs on our Christianity rather than just having. So that's what I'd say to that, if that makes sense. Jack, would you have anything to add to that? [00:44:48] Speaker C: No. You mentioned the Gnostic tendency a couple times. I think the best way to express that is as a denial of Genesis 1 and 2, like that they didn't happen or that they're erased, they don't count anymore, that kind of thing. When we talk about the gender roles, Adam and Eve, man and woman, man created for a certain thing, woman to be his help meet and the separation there, and even sin and punishment and things like that. There's so much of like in Christianity, that stuff basically is all gone away. No, that's how God operates. And you have. In Genesis 1, you have the dominion mandate. After God made man in his image. Verse 128 says, God bless them. And God said to them, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth. I think a lot of people with this Gnostic thing with the heaven Only thing is kind of like, well that got scrapped. God's going to destroy all this world's going to burn. So it's just about the other thing. Adam. Jesus is the new Adam. Adam was king of the world. He was going to rule over the whole world and all that. He forfeited it by his sin and delinquents and all that. And Jesus is the new Adam. He before ascending says, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. A new dominion mandate. Go and disciple the nations. Teach the nations to obey Christ is what he said to obey me because I have all authority. We're living in that now. This is not like. And the way the world has gotten better, that's one of the things I harp on a lot is these over spiritualized guys totally ignore how much better the world is in the last 2000 years under Christianity than it ever was before. Things like slavery being eradicated was due to non tone deaf Christians. Like yeah, when you go to the slave, well you go to heaven when you die, yeah, but help the guy get free. Like it was great what Wilberforce did. Looking at the scriptures, looking and saying this is wrong. We're going to do something about this. We need to have that same approach to abortion. We need to have that same approach to these awful LGBT laws they're passing where you can't even help them come out of it and things like that. And so when you have those kinds of things, it is under the dominion mandate. It is you are a human meant to live here as God's ambassadors on earth. That's why I titled my book Christ co rulers. He has all authority and he has delegated authority to us to go and do and make the world a better place in his image while we're here. It's not just well everything will all be fixed. It's things do get better here. They're never going to be perfect here. We're not saying that. But things get better here in the reign of Christ and we should live like it. [00:47:21] Speaker A: There's another important principle that has to come up in this discussion as well as you consider the Israelites coming out of Egypt. Joe and Jack have done a great job taking us at our home congregation through the books of Exodus, Leviticus and we are wrapping up numbers right now. And one thing that just sticks out is that God very easily could have taken his people, the Israelite people, the Israelite nation and just if the promised land was the entire goal, like that's all that mattered. He could have just Taken them and basically just stuck them in the promised land, like kind of planted them there and said, okay, I know there's a bunch of other nations around, but you know, for, for us the goal was the promised land. So here, go ahead and, and enjoy the promised land. Have at it. What had to happen before the Israelites could inhabit or could, could, could live in the promised land, could dwell in the promised land, those other nations had to be eradicated. They had to be destroyed. That you see that of course, Joshua with Jericho and AI and like God couldn't just take them and move them into the promised land and say, hey, just kind of ignore everything going else going on around you. No, they had to wipe the other nations out. Why? Because God knew in his infinite wisdom, if I just stick them in there with, with these other, with, you know, if I don't worry about the other nations, this generation of Israelites and their, their faith to me or, or their, their belief in me and, and their acknowledgement of me as their creator and their God will be gone after one generation because they're like, God knew. And that's what you see in Deuteronomy. That's what you see as Moses is telling them you're about to be given this land is pass the faith on. Make sure that your kids know because they can all be gone in one generation. And so as I think about how this relates to us, we have to be concerned for the next generation. We absolutely have to have in mind what are not just my kids, what's the world like that they're going to grow up in. But what about my grandkids? What about my great grandkids? And it's in our, as we talked about before in our individualized me, me, me culture, it's so hard to see things through those lens because all we think about is man, what are my next 60 years going to be like that we again neglect. I mean, my son is three years old. Lord willing, he's got 90 more years to live on, on this, on this earth, 20 to 30 more than I will. What's his life going to be like? What about his kids, my grandkids? Like, we have to have that concern of the next generation. And again, where why I brought the Israelites is because God and you know, Moses and the Israelites, they had that concern of the next generation. That's why they wiped all the nations out. That's why they went in and destroyed the cities. Because like, if we just allow them to be here, that's why God said Don't make any covenants with anybody because it's going to have a severe negative effect on the next generation. Of my people, there was concern for the next generation. The memorial stones. Make sure your kids know they're in Joshua 4 again, Deuteronomy, chapter 8. Do not forget the Lord your God. Make sure you pass it down for us. Nowadays to say that, well, you know, kind of the politics or the direction of the nation doesn't really matter, is just tone, death in the sense of, like, it's telling the future generations, tough luck, guys. Hope you. Hope you figure it out. Hope, hope, hope it gets better for you. But I'm not going to do anything right now to make your lives better or anything like that. Just no concern for the next generation at all. That's an important principle we have to discuss. [00:50:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. You take a guy who's got a million bucks, he could pass down to his kids, he could really set his kids up, college funds and, and, you know, set some, some money aside and it's going to grow at a certain percentage. Or he goes, you know what? I'm just going to blow it all because, hey, God will. God provided for me, and so I know God will provide for them. And so he doesn't really care, and he just goes, blows the million dollars and his kids start in poverty. And we would look at that guy and Solomon would rightfully say, the guy's a fool. You know, you're. You're not really thinking about any of the next generation. I think about your kids. You're not setting them up for the future. There is a natural inclination to set your kids up for the future. And somebody might look at that and go, yeah, that's a horrible thing. Yeah, well, that's exactly what this generation or two generations before us did, is while all the money has been spent, while inflation is on the rise, while a house that used to cost $60,000 now costs $560,000 and the interest rate is still skyrocketed. And all of these things like, we did get, you know, they did not think about the next generation. It was me, me, me, let me make sure I get mine. And now the next generation is dealing with it. And we come along and go, man, it costs a lot to live. My grocery bill is literally like triple even what it was five years ago, but it's triple and probably 10 times what it was at their generation, at least 10 times what it was. And it's like, well, hey, God will provide. Yes, he will. But what? Like, did you have Any duty to the next generation to try to keep costs low for them, to try to help them along. Well guys, that's, that's not spiritual. You know, we just got to think about heaven. Like, yes, but I have to now. And you see these people that work three, four, five different jobs, these guys that are working two or three different jobs every single day trying to put food on their family's table and then they get browbeat because like, well, you're not with your kids enough. Like I have to be able to provide for them. And the reason that happened is because of tone deaf Christians who didn't think about the next generation. All we got to think about is heaven. It's like you didn't think about the fact that I still live here. We still have to put food on our family's table, we still have to pay for a house, we still have to get all of these things. And now it comes at a much greater cost. You used to be able to put your kids through college on your sixty thousand dollar a year trucking job. Nowadays the average guy needs a hundred thousand dollars just to make it like that is insanity. And that started with tone deaf Christians who only thought about heaven, didn't think about the next generation, didn't think about leaving anything to their kids, didn't think about what that might look like to set them up for the next generation. And here's where we are. And once again it's easy to be tone deaf and go, well, you care too much about this world. Like I have four kids that need to be fed, so I don't know what you want me to do with that. If. [00:53:06] Speaker A: And they're going to have kids that. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Need to be fed and they're going to have kids, right? Like Lord willing, They've got another 80 plus years on this planet. I want to leave them the best life possible and I'm not wrong for doing so. And I'm not too worldly minded to be thinking about trying to leave a good place for my children and trying to like where I live now. I don't think that's wrong. It's okay to be passionate about these things. And so many times Christians are basically told, sit down, shut up, don't be passionate, only think about heaven. That's not helping. It's tone deaf. [00:53:34] Speaker C: If you were Satan, like it's the perfect strategy. Just convince Christians actually doing good things that help your neighbors, help your fellow country men, help your children and grandchildren. Oh, you're not actually supposed to do that. Jesus doesn't Want you to do that. That's not the way of the cross. And it really is this kind of beautiful loser mindset. And I can hear these guys right now, they're like, well, you know, losing Jesus went to the cross. It wasn't about victory. It was. The cross was his path to victory. It was not the end point. He walked out of the grave. I hate this. It drives me crazy. They leave Jesus in the grave. It's cross, cross, cross, cross, cross. There's an open tomb for a reason. The cross was the path to victory. Yes, there is loss and death and all that, but guess what? The development I was talking about over the last 2,000 years, there was a lot of loss and death and all that early on to give us these opportunities and so to like reinvent the wheel of, well, we got to go back and rehash all this and live through persecution again and do all these things. No, these were hard earned benefits that we're just throwing away. And, and again, if I were Satan, that's exactly what I would try and do is convince Christians. Just keep, no, you're not supposed to. In fact, you're being a bad Christian if you use this opportunity to do good to other people. [00:54:45] Speaker A: So, Joe, you got on here. Yeah, I was just going to go ahead and get into some of this. I think this is an important question. How do we balance caring about the thing, the things going on in this world, but not be too consumed with it? Because as we brought up earlier, there are those. And if I, again, if I was trying to, if I was on the other side, there are those who probably are a little too consumed with it. Jack brought up Matthew 6 earlier. Like they are just locked into the latest news report and they are just dialed into. Oh man, did you, did you see what happened here? Did you see this awful thing that happened? And they probably do. They probably are looking at the news and they're looking at Twitter or looking at X way more than they're looking at the Bible, like, stuff like that. And so I obviously, obviously I think there is a pendulum swing too far to where you can just be consumed with all the things going on. Obviously politics is a big, big factor, but just, you know, worldly world events. Because the other thing too is it can turn you into a pessimist. It can turn you into a Christian who lacks joy. Both of which I don't really think there's any room for Christians to be. I don't think Christians should be pessimists. I don't think, obviously Joy is a fruit of the spirit. So it goes without saying. So how do we balance caring about what's going on in the world? Everything you just spoke to Joe, being passionate and caring about the future, the world that we're leaving for our kids and future generations and our. And grandkids and such. How do we balance caring for that but not be too caught up in just the doom and gloom or being consumed with too much focus in this world? [00:56:17] Speaker B: Jack, you want to take this one or you want me to take this one? You had some thoughts on this that I don't want to? [00:56:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's a really hard thing. I mean, if you wake up on whatever morning they actually get the votes counted, you wake up on that morning and you find out the election went a certain way. Yeah. Like there, there's no election where it's like, we're saved, life is great, everything's perfect again. There's no outcome like that. But there's a better and there's a worse. [00:56:39] Speaker A: There's a sigh of relief versus a. Oh boy. [00:56:42] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's looking at it. And honestly, like I said, that whole Jesus is on his throne, there's certain results. I'm going to wake up and go, we are fully under judgment. We're about to get everything we deserve. And I can't say we don't deserve it. I mean, you look at how much our nation loves abortion, our nation deserves it. And so if you wake up to that, you kind of realize it's going to get bad, it's going to be bad. That's. You don't have to be detached from reality and just go, oh yeah, everything's going to great. [00:57:05] Speaker B: It'd be great. [00:57:06] Speaker C: Like honestly, Focus Press is a donor supported ministry. It's gotten a lot harder to be donor supported in the last four years. Another four years of it, we'll go under. We're just going to, it's going to be the reality that we live under is things like that. A lot of church supported ministries, if they start coming after church tax exemptions, I'm really interested to see what a lot of these keep your hands off kind of preachers do when their church has a $50,000 tax bill for their gigantic building and all of a sudden everybody's salaries get cut. Like maybe the rhetoric changes when it hits their pocketbook like it has everybody else's. I don't know, maybe not. Maybe they'll stick with it, but there's realities you have to be awake to. On the other hand, you have to look at and say, this is God's judgment. God is good. God's judgment is to bring people to repentance. And if this is what it takes to bring these people to repentance, I love these people enough that I'll handle it and I'll trust that he'll get me and my family through it. If it's persecution and it ends up with us brutally killed, we go to heaven. Don't fear those who can destroy the body. I mean, that's what Jesus himself told us. That's a trained response. That's not your natural response. You're going to have to, we're all going to have to ground ourselves in. Don't be anxious for tomorrow. Give us this day, our daily bread. I mean, like, some really difficult times could come your way. And again, I'm not saying it's, wow, we live in Utopia versus we're all dead. It's not that, but it's. There's realities we're dealing with. And so as a Christian, fighting the anxiety, fighting the fear, fighting the dejection, things like that is something you have to do, but it doesn't mean you have to be unrealistic and just think, well, it just doesn't matter. There's no, no difference one way or the other. [00:58:41] Speaker B: I think there's fighting for an outcome on the, on the front end. You know, we can fight for certain outcomes. If it doesn't work out, this is where the peace has to come in, the trust, the faith has to come in of like, okay, this is God's will. I did vote for a specific person or I did, you know, reach out into this ministry or into this, whatever it may be. And it didn't go my way. It didn't end up working out. Yeah, that's where faith is going to be tested quite a bit. I think tone deafness starts with the beginning of don't do anything. No, I think you can do a lot. You can try to do whatever as long as it's within God's, you know, in a godly way. But we don't want people and Christians to sit on their hands and do nothing. And that's kind of the point of this episode is the tone deafness is guys say it's all taken care of. When that's really tested is we did do everything. And it's very clear God's judgment is on us or whatever it may be. God is going to different, a different direction, aligning ourselves with God's will in that moment and going I will have peace in the fact that God is bringing about his ultimate will. It's the same thing as when somebody goes through. They. They lose, like, God forbid. But, you know, you lose a child, you can grieve that. I think their anger at God, anger at a lot of people, and people go, you can't do that. Like, well, the psalmist was. I mean, there's. There's anger that just shoots out. At the end of the day, we come back around to God had a plan and a purpose that we don't understand it. I can still be grieving and devastated and hurt and angry about what happened. I can still feel all of those things for time, while at the same time learning as Jack talked about this train response to say, God is good. I know he had a plan for this. You know, he took my son or my daughter home with him. There is the hope of heaven. Thank God that he, you know, they're in heaven, I'll see them again. And so we can have peace in that. But to basically say, well, we got peace in that. Don't worry about now. No, no, no. We can absolutely still feel that grief and still worry about or, you know, still feel like all of the angst and everything else that comes along with losing a child, that's on a very extreme level. But that's kind of what I'm talking about, is you can have both sides and have the peace that's like they're in heaven with God while bawling your eyes out for a year, you know, just trying to come to grips with what took place. Both of those things can be true. And when we browbeat Christians to say, you shouldn't be crying because there's the hope of heaven, that's tone deaf. You're missing the point here of, like, both can be true, where I am trying to find peace and hope in heaven, having faith that this is what was best while really wrestling in this day and age with this is. That's. That's really hard for me right now. So this is why it's important for us Christians to get this right, is it helps us show up for people a little bit more. It is not helpful to go to the guy who lost his loved one and say, well, you know, thank goodness that our home is not of this world. Like, guys, they just lost a child. Okay, let's. Let's let them grieve. We know that on that level, we're talking about it on a much less level, but still to that degree, that's kind of how we're framing this and why I think these discussions matter. [01:01:40] Speaker C: It wasn't wrong for Abraham to pray that God spare Sodom and pray and pray and pray and ask, you know, go or not pray, but just directly ask him. And then when God says, yep, there, there's not enough, okay, that's, that's the result. And I think that's kind of the thing we're talking about here. [01:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah, that was, you guys said that both, both those summarizations very, very well. The only thing I was going to add is we haven't talked a ton about prayer in this episode. Yeah, that's what prayer, that's what prayer is for. I mean, utilize it and pray every single day for the, the things that you want to see take place in this world, obviously for the incredibly important things, your kids faithfulness, getting your family to heaven, being a better spouse better and all these things. But I think it's perfectly reasonable and acceptable and I think expected for Christians to pray for abortion to get overturned, for the doctors that are performing transgender surgeries to be stopped, stuff like that. And you know, I don't think anybody would say, oh, well, that's too earthly minded for you to think. No, that's what's going on and that's what's important. Pray for the results of the election. Pray that leaders will turn back to God. Like all these things. Utilize. Prayer will be the only thing that I would add. So those are, those are my final thoughts. Jack, I guess you're taking us away from here. [01:02:50] Speaker C: All right, let's do our think fast. Since we're just days away. If you could vote one person in the Bible to be president and I'm taking Jesus off. I thought he was about to ask what you're voting for one person in the Bible. As I said, Jesus, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, he's, you know, we're going to excuse him from the voting here. Who are you going with? [01:03:15] Speaker A: I'd probably go with the Holy Spirit. I'm just kidding. [01:03:19] Speaker C: Nice. [01:03:22] Speaker B: Daniel, I think. Daniel. Daniel or Joseph, I mean both sides. [01:03:26] Speaker A: Joe, come on. [01:03:26] Speaker C: I was going to go with two obvious ones. Yeah. [01:03:28] Speaker A: Joseph showed. [01:03:29] Speaker B: Just because they're both incredible leadership. Yeah, they're both in leadership positions in the world already. They both understand government but are very grounded biblically speaking. I think either of those guys would be, would be perfectly good. [01:03:42] Speaker A: I think Joseph for sure is my answer. [01:03:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean they're the two that come to mind obviously because of their governmental experience. I'm trying to think like outside of governmental Experience. Nehemiah, I think would be another really good one. I was about to say in the New Testament. [01:04:04] Speaker B: Immigration. [01:04:05] Speaker C: Yeah, Paul. And he had the, the, the Persians pay for it. Okay. No, I was going to say, you know, Paul, you could see some leadership qualities there. I don't know, his fireside chats would be pretty interesting. His national address, the State of the Union or whatever. Any other nominations candidates in there? Moses, Peter. [01:04:28] Speaker B: Interesting impulsiveness. He, he'd push the nuclear codes button. You know, I'm done with these people. Hold on, Peter. Hold on. [01:04:35] Speaker C: No, that was James and John calling down fire from. [01:04:38] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:04:39] Speaker C: You're not doing that. Yeah, yeah. Moses is an interesting choice. Joshua. I mean like there's just. I don't know if the listeners. Have you got one? If we didn't cover or if you want to tell us why one is a good choice or bad choice, let us know. [01:04:52] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's good. [01:04:53] Speaker C: I try to go a little more light hearted at the end of a heavier episode, but it just is what it is. I love where will close this out with a reminder to pray. Pray for the church. [01:05:02] Speaker B: Pray. [01:05:03] Speaker C: I mean the one reality these people get right is no matter what happens, God is accomplishing his will. I'm praying for a stay of his judgment as patience for people to have time to repent. If not, then the judgment is coming and I pray that the judgment works quickly and people repent and that includes the church, that the church repents and stops being so hands off and so detached and all these things we're talking about. So in all things, just keep it in prayer. If you have any thoughts, comments obviously focus plus for the deep end, focus press.org plus if you want to join us on that and YouTube, Facebook, wherever you like to leave us a comment. We'd love to hear from you on this one. And we've got Dr. Brad Harib next week coming on to talk about his parenting book and the next issue of Think magazine. So keep an ear out for that one and we'll talk to you then.